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I spent my last dollar getting here when

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we kick it and you're talking to me

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about healing through belief you're a

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man looking at the world through a

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keyhole and you spent your whole life

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trying to widen that keyhole to see more

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to know more and now on hearing that it

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can be widened in ways you can't imagine

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you reject the possibility I reject it

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because I do not believe in fairy tales

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about chakras or energy or the power

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belief there is no such thing as spirit

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that's a clip from the 2016 mega sci-fi

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hit Doctor Strange and this scene really

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captures the scientist at the tipping

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point we are made of matter nothing more

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it's just another tiny momentary speck

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within an indifferent universe you think

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too little of yourself oh you think you

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see through me doing what you don't but

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I see through you I pushed your astral

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form out of your physical what's in that

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tea psilocybin LSD tea with a little

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honey of course wouldn't it be great if

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it was that simple but the reality is as

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we know the transition from the

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materialistic scientific paradigm that

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were in meshed in to what lies beyond is

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anything but clean and there's a lot of

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hanger honors as today's guest dr.

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Philip Goff has experienced a

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philosopher who's very good friend of

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mine a very warm and pathetic guy very

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kind cares about the world but he

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doesn't think consciousness exists it's

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always incredible to me that it you know

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in a sense he thinks you know no one has

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ever really felt pain on earth I think

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one of the big problems in that position

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is all of scientific knowledge is

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mediated through consciousness right you

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only know that electrons because you

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have conscious experiences of cloud

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chambers and things thinking that you

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could have scientific evidence the

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consciousness doesn't exist is a bit

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like thinking astronomy can tell us that

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there are

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telescopes but I guess one of the

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questions for me is how much of this

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hang around our stuff should we tolerate

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should we accept as just part of the

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change process versus calling it for

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what it is you know in academia it's

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really easy

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who gets the grants who gets promoted

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who doesn't get promoted who doesn't get

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tenure and they get pruned off the tree

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and at the end of the day you wind up

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with what we have now

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you know we wind up with you debating

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with Jerry Coyne which again I I know I

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push back when I say this but he's just

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really incompetent I mean I've had him

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on the show and he just blows like you

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pointed out in your debate with him he

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just gets major things wrong that he's

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supposed to know about

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and yet he's put forward and propped up

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University of Chicago been around

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forever and this goes on and on so that

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that's the social engineering project

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not that people don't legitimately

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believe you know they believe it's just

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that the people who are really thinking

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this thing through are not presented as

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credible this was a very fun chat with a

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very bright guy who's doing some great

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work I hope you enjoy my conversation

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with dr. Phillip golf

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[Music]

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today we welcome dr. Philip Goff to

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skeptic Oh Philip is a philosopher and

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consciousness researcher at Durham

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University in the UK he's the author of

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consciousness and fundamental reality

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he's got a new book coming out titled

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Galileo's air a manifesto for a new

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science of consciousness he blogs at

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conscious and consciousness if you see a

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theme here hey this guy is all about

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consciousness and that just makes him a

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perfect guest for what we love to talk

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about here on skeptic Oh Philip I'm

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really glad we were able to make this

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happen finally and thanks so much for

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joining me

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great let's get the chest so let's start

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worked in a lot of different places over

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the last 10 or 11 years and I guess my

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main focus is consciousness I guess more

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generally I've just you know I'm just

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really fascinated by things that don't

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seem to fit into our standard scientific

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picture of the world or the thing things

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that it's really hard to fit in the

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consciousness being at the obvious one

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but also you know other things like

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value for example we tend to think there

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are you know facts about value can to

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see how they fit in with the kind of

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facts we know about for the natural

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science or abstract objects like

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mathematicians tell us all sorts of cool

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things about numbers and sets you know

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what the hell is the connection between

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that kind of abstract realm and a

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concrete world of tables and chairs so

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you know I guess I'm just interested in

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how how all these things fit together

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and I you know how we can have a a

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worldview that can accommodate you know

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not just the things that empirical

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science that observation experiment tell

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us about but other things we have a

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reason to believe in my consciousness

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for example how we can fit them all

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together there I guess that's my the big

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thing I try to do really yeah I like as

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I was preparing for the unit

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I forget where I ran across this but I

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love this story early you know early

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childhood story you know you say I asked

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my parents where are we you know you say

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hey I was always interested in

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big-picture questions I asked my parents

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where are we and then you have a great

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sense of humor and you added but maybe

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that's because we just moved into a new

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house about this in preparation for

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Cynthia did you know did I show any

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signs of early interest in philosophy I

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guess I've been interested in full of

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simple questions as long as I can

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remember really and I was asking my dad

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how far back that went and yet she said

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to me when I was far I think he was five

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I can't remember now what I said in

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light and yeah I asked why we're here

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but it was as I say I have to confess it

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was we just moved to in you know so it

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could have been connected to that I

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don't know but well I think it's I think

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it's a great story especially the way

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things turn out I mean it is interesting

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because a lot of people do not have a

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passion for these kind of questions

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which to me always seemed fundamental

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even in my life when I was running off

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doing other things business primarily

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chasing money and doing that kind of

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stuff I always had in the back of my

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mind that I'd like to get around to

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answering these fundamental questions do

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you ever wonder why more people don't

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seem to have this on the top of their

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to-do list that is to get to the bottom

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of this yeah I guess it's partly to do

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with the very kind of scientistic

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culture we're living in I mean people

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don't really know what philosophy is

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they think no it's the job of science to

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tell us you know what the universe is

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like maybe it's a job of philosophers to

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make us feel a bit better about it or

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something but you know it's the job of

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science' tell us what the world is like

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and I guess I think we're going through

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a phase of history where people are

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rightly you know blown away by the

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success of physical science you know and

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the extraordinary technology it's

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produced and you know that leads you to

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think oh this works right we've got

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something that works and to put all your

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faith in that whereas as we might get

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onto I

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in my view the reason physical science

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has been so successful is because it's

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it's always been focused on on a quite

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narrow task you know roughly telling us

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how things behave and it's done very

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well focusing on that narrow task but

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there's lots of other things we know

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about the world that you know don't

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quite fit in there such as consciousness

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I mean you know consciousness is that is

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the most interesting because on the one

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hand it's so hard to fit into our

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standard scientific picture of reality

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but on the other hand it's so hard to

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deny it exists you know you're nothing

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is more evident than the reality of our

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feelings and experiences so you know we

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have to account for it somehow it has to

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fit in there somehow you know but it's

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so hard to make it fit so you know I

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mean things have changed a lot I'd say

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you know but hold on hold on full stop

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because I always worry that even casting

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it that way is I think conceding too

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much to materialistic science from a

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philosophical standpoint consciousness

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your consciousness is really the only

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thing you can be sure of and contrasting

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that with this theory out there this

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unproven and in a lot of ways falsified

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theory that the world is out there that

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the world is measurable that the rule

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there's a consensus among all of us I

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mean that is just falsified over and

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over again so do we even from the

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beginning because of the power of

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science in our society do we concede too

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much even at the beginning yeah

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certainly agree with you to the extent

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that I think what is known with greater

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certainty is the reality of my own

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consciousness you know is there a really

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a table out there that's questionable is

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certainly known with certainty but if

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I'm in pain

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it's very hard to deny the reality of my

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pain that I'm immediately aware of in my

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experience so I think you know decart

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you know the start of modern philosophy

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back in the Scientific Revolution got

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that completely right although I don't

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agree with them about a lot of other

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things but I suppose it depends what you

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mean by science

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I tend to distinguish physical science

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from a more expansive conception of

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science physical science being focused

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on obsession and experiment

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and quantitative analysis in intuitive

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vocabulary mathema I don't think those

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resources are much good at least for

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giving a complete account of

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consciousness and I think they were

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never designed for that purpose but what

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I like to move towards is expansive

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conception of science sometimes called

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the boost gala AIIMS where we where we

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take your observation environment

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uncertain as they don't think they're

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important for informing our theory of

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the world but we also take the reality

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of consciousness as we immediately

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experience it as a datum at least equal

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if not more important than observation

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experiment and we try to put them both

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together and try to find a theory a

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reality that can account for both and I

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don't people are really in the mindset

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of thinking of science like that they

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think of Sciences the job of science is

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account for the data of observation

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experiment you know once you've done

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that job done but I think that you know

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know there's something else there's

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something else we know is real and if we

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can't account for that then our theory

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00:12:00,970 --> 00:11:58,309
is incomplete so I think we need to move

275
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to an expansive conception of science

276
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:03,649
where we take consciousness as a datum

277
00:12:08,379 --> 00:12:04,610
and it's so right

278
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:08,389
yeah I hear you I keep wanting to go

279
00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:11,689
further and I guess that's been one of

280
00:12:17,350 --> 00:12:14,809
my aims on this show because well I

281
00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:17,360
started with believing there was this

282
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:19,670
legitimate divide you know and this

283
00:12:24,369 --> 00:12:22,160
legitimate question about the hard

284
00:12:26,049 --> 00:12:24,379
problem of consciousness which you know

285
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:26,059
now I come to understand is such a

286
00:12:29,170 --> 00:12:27,290
misnomer I mean what's

287
00:12:31,420 --> 00:12:29,180
easy problem of consciousness it kind of

288
00:12:34,509 --> 00:12:31,430
misses the point from the beginning but

289
00:12:38,050 --> 00:12:34,519
that led me to an investigation of

290
00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:38,060
frontier science parapsychology here are

291
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:41,600
folks saying wait I can take I can play

292
00:12:46,449 --> 00:12:43,850
by the rules of the game that is the

293
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:46,459
scientific method and I can show you

294
00:12:53,319 --> 00:12:49,970
that consciousness doesn't work the way

295
00:12:55,930 --> 00:12:53,329
you think it does that an epiphenomena

296
00:12:59,100 --> 00:12:55,940
of the brain model of brain based

297
00:13:01,780 --> 00:12:59,110
consciousness falls apart from these

298
00:13:04,180 --> 00:13:01,790
parapsychology experiments and then when

299
00:13:06,189 --> 00:13:04,190
you start pulling all that apart and

300
00:13:08,439 --> 00:13:06,199
there's all this bobbling back and forth

301
00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:08,449
hey take it one step further go to the

302
00:13:12,610 --> 00:13:10,750
near-death experience science

303
00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:12,620
experiments published in peer-reviewed

304
00:13:16,689 --> 00:13:14,930
journals and now you're totally off the

305
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:16,699
reservation there's no way we can get

306
00:13:21,129 --> 00:13:17,600
back to that

307
00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:21,139
don't be materialistic science brain

308
00:13:27,340 --> 00:13:25,430
based neurology nonsense what about what

309
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:27,350
about that path what about it-- so my

310
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:30,490
poke at you is I don't see Phillip Gough

311
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:33,050
parapsychology I don't see dr. Phillip

312
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:36,170
Goff near-death experience aren't these

313
00:13:41,579 --> 00:13:38,959
probably the best examples we have of

314
00:13:47,019 --> 00:13:41,589
science that undermines this

315
00:13:50,290 --> 00:13:47,029
materialistic consciousness idea I guess

316
00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:50,300
I guess you're critiquing materialism

317
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:54,670
perhaps from a different angle I mean I

318
00:14:00,340 --> 00:13:56,810
mean my protamine I guess my

319
00:14:04,180 --> 00:14:00,350
philosophical education we were told

320
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:04,190
that the the only options you know you

321
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:07,519
had to be a materialist or a duelist you

322
00:14:12,009 --> 00:14:10,490
had to you had to think you know like a

323
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:12,019
materia so you could just explain

324
00:14:16,540 --> 00:14:13,730
consciousness in terms of the chemistry

325
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:16,550
of the brain oh you're a duelist and you

326
00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:19,250
think consciousness is outside of the

327
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:21,260
physical body and brain which is maybe

328
00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:22,880
from what you've just said that more the

329
00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:24,470
direction you're a man perhaps

330
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:28,029
I guess I've always found both of these

331
00:14:33,309 --> 00:14:31,850
problematic and you know for a long time

332
00:14:34,689 --> 00:14:33,319
I was kind of disillusioned with it all

333
00:14:38,379 --> 00:14:34,699
and thought you know none of these

334
00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:38,389
options work but I guess what what I'm

335
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:40,700
just interested in is is

336
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:43,970
general picture of reality that is able

337
00:14:50,050 --> 00:14:47,930
to bring together you know what we know

338
00:14:52,290 --> 00:14:50,060
about reality from observation and

339
00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:52,300
experiment and what we know about

340
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:54,950
consciousness from the inside as it were

341
00:15:00,040 --> 00:14:58,010
you know a general theory of reality and

342
00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:00,050
then you know obviously we want to do

343
00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:01,700
empirical work to fill out the details

344
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:04,190
and people will argue over that and you

345
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:11,320
you know I guess the more conventional

346
00:15:14,650 --> 00:15:13,040
scientists for better or worse I don't

347
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:14,660
mean to say conventional in a positive

348
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:16,370
or a negative way will push in the

349
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:18,710
opposite direction I want a general

350
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:21,770
framework that can fit in consciousness

351
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:24,850
whatever the science tells us you know

352
00:15:28,180 --> 00:15:27,050
so I guess I'm working you know

353
00:15:32,050 --> 00:15:28,190
different people work on different

354
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:32,060
things I'm working at a at that general

355
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:35,690
framework and you know part of the

356
00:15:40,330 --> 00:15:37,250
reason you know my last book the new

357
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:40,340
consciousness but man reality was a very

358
00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:42,650
academic book it's probably a bit more

359
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:44,750
accessible than a normal academic book

360
00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:46,880
but it's still pretty you know it

361
00:15:51,010 --> 00:15:48,980
inaccessible in some ways so the the

362
00:15:53,050 --> 00:15:51,020
purpose of my new book is very different

363
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:53,060
kind of book very much aimed at a

364
00:15:59,080 --> 00:15:55,730
general audience very much trying to get

365
00:16:00,670 --> 00:15:59,090
this general framework out there that's

366
00:16:02,770 --> 00:16:00,680
getting more known and causing a lot of

367
00:16:04,330 --> 00:16:02,780
excitement in academic philosophy for

368
00:16:07,330 --> 00:16:04,340
trying to get it out there to a broader

369
00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:07,340
audience to scientists to think is more

370
00:16:11,770 --> 00:16:08,990
broadly so that you know we can start to

371
00:16:13,630 --> 00:16:11,780
try and or fill in the details of this

372
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:13,640
view you know bringing in more of the

373
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:15,170
empirical science but I guess I'm

374
00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:18,260
working at that more abstract level that

375
00:16:23,770 --> 00:16:21,200
abstracts from those specificities that

376
00:16:25,570 --> 00:16:23,780
make sense maybe I'm gonna push you a

377
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:25,580
little bit on that for a second but tell

378
00:16:30,190 --> 00:16:27,170
us about that book it sounds interesting

379
00:16:34,030 --> 00:16:30,200
Galileo's air that immediately draws us

380
00:16:38,860 --> 00:16:34,040
in what's the general premise so I guess

381
00:16:40,750 --> 00:16:38,870
the big argument is that the reason we

382
00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:40,760
have a problem of consciousness is

383
00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:42,350
because of the way

384
00:16:48,010 --> 00:16:44,870
Galileo designed physical science and

385
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:48,020
hence if we want to solve the problem of

386
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:49,370
consciousness you know we need to

387
00:16:54,190 --> 00:16:53,210
rethink what what science is so you know

388
00:16:55,660 --> 00:16:54,200
that I mean the

389
00:17:00,220 --> 00:16:55,670
key moment in the Scientific Revolution

390
00:17:02,250 --> 00:17:00,230
is when Galileo says mathematics is to

391
00:17:05,050 --> 00:17:02,260
be the language of the new science right

392
00:17:07,990 --> 00:17:05,060
and but what is that and forgotten is

393
00:17:10,750 --> 00:17:08,000
the philosophical work he had to do to

394
00:17:14,050 --> 00:17:10,760
get to that stage right because before

395
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:14,060
Galileo people thought the world was

396
00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:17,510
full of qualities thought the physical

397
00:17:21,970 --> 00:17:19,339
world was you know they were colours on

398
00:17:24,939 --> 00:17:21,980
the surfaces of objects and smells

399
00:17:27,790 --> 00:17:24,949
floating through the air and tastes in

400
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:27,800
food and this is a problem for Galileo

401
00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:29,450
because he wanna it's hard to see how

402
00:17:34,450 --> 00:17:32,470
you can capture these qualities in

403
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:34,460
mathematical language you know how can

404
00:17:38,530 --> 00:17:37,010
you capture what you know the redness of

405
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:38,540
red in the abstract language of

406
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:41,810
mathematics so what Galileo did and this

407
00:17:46,210 --> 00:17:43,490
is you know this is the start of modern

408
00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:46,220
science what Galileo did was he he gave

409
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:48,620
a philosophical reinterpretation of

410
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:51,650
reality right you know he said I don't

411
00:17:55,930 --> 00:17:53,930
think those qualities are really out

412
00:17:59,230 --> 00:17:55,940
there in reality I think they're in the

413
00:18:01,270 --> 00:17:59,240
soul they're in consciousness they're

414
00:18:03,910 --> 00:18:01,280
outside of the domain of science and

415
00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:03,920
then the job of science is to focus on

416
00:18:09,370 --> 00:18:07,550
the quantitative aspects of matter what

417
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:09,380
you can capture in mathematics eyes

418
00:18:13,150 --> 00:18:11,600
shape motion they're they're the only

419
00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:13,160
things that are really in the physical

420
00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:15,920
scientific domain so he introduces this

421
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:20,140
dualism this radical division between

422
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:23,330
you know between consciousness and its

423
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:26,810
qualities outside of science and the

424
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:30,010
quantitative mathematical physical world

425
00:18:34,270 --> 00:18:32,330
and so this is the start of mathematical

426
00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:34,280
physics and it's been you know

427
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:36,460
incredibly successful at what it does

428
00:18:42,820 --> 00:18:40,730
but you know it was never intended to be

429
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:42,830
a complete theory of reality and it was

430
00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:46,640
always premise on taking consciousness

431
00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:48,230
in the qualities of consciousness

432
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:51,590
outside of science and so you know if we

433
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:54,170
need to if we if we want a complete

434
00:18:58,150 --> 00:18:55,970
theory of reality that includes

435
00:18:59,950 --> 00:18:58,160
consciousness you know we have to find a

436
00:19:01,390 --> 00:18:59,960
way of bringing it back in so I think

437
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:01,400
you know like if Galileo is to

438
00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:03,770
time-travel to the present day and hear

439
00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:05,990
about this problem of giving a physical

440
00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:07,640
explanation of consciousness

441
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:08,870
he'd say you know of course that's

442
00:19:13,690 --> 00:19:10,850
impossible I designed science to deal

443
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:13,700
with quantities not qualities so I think

444
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:15,290
you know it's been the problem of

445
00:19:18,940 --> 00:19:16,970
consciousness has been written in from

446
00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:18,950
the start really so that's the kind of

447
00:19:24,940 --> 00:19:22,190
starting point of the book yeah you know

448
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,950
I always point to the famous quote

449
00:19:28,930 --> 00:19:27,200
that's attributed to Richard Feynman but

450
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:28,940
I think it was actually someone else but

451
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:32,810
you know in the early 1900's when the

452
00:19:37,570 --> 00:19:34,910
great quantum physicists are really

453
00:19:39,250 --> 00:19:37,580
trying to solve that problem and they

454
00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:39,260
get to it and they go hey you know what

455
00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:43,070
we can't its consciousness there's there

456
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:45,830
we've run right up against the wall of

457
00:19:51,580 --> 00:19:48,710
consciousness right and then find Minh

458
00:19:53,170 --> 00:19:51,590
and his group go off and say the shut up

459
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:53,180
and calculate things do you know that

460
00:19:59,050 --> 00:19:55,760
story where they just kind of go yeah so

461
00:20:02,800 --> 00:19:59,060
shut up and calculate to me is what we

462
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:02,810
live in now and what the right the only

463
00:20:08,170 --> 00:20:05,570
the only problem with that is that we

464
00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:08,180
kind of ignore the fact that we took a

465
00:20:13,150 --> 00:20:10,550
philosophical side step to the problem

466
00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:13,160
right so we we ran into the wall and we

467
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:15,230
said okay it's perfectly fine to say

468
00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:17,090
well we'll just step around it for now

469
00:20:21,460 --> 00:20:19,040
and see what kind of iPhones we can make

470
00:20:23,740 --> 00:20:21,470
out of this but then you do have to come

471
00:20:26,070 --> 00:20:23,750
back at some point and go we did kind of

472
00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:26,080
sidestep the fact that none of this

473
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:28,700
really makes any sense from a

474
00:20:32,890 --> 00:20:30,710
measurement standpoint and that's where

475
00:20:36,910 --> 00:20:32,900
I guess I feel like we're still kind of

476
00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:36,920
tiptoeing around the dilemma with

477
00:20:42,010 --> 00:20:39,800
science in general and I'm not even

478
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:42,020
willing to concede that you know we have

479
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:44,990
to compartmentalize it here there if we

480
00:20:51,390 --> 00:20:48,410
can't measure then science is out of

481
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:51,400
business and everything we know about

482
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:54,410
quantum physics tells us that at the

483
00:21:00,610 --> 00:20:57,710
fundamental level that we know of we are

484
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:00,620
no longer able to really measure things

485
00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:04,400
so I just wonder if if we're really

486
00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:07,040
there and I listened to your interview

487
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:08,900
your excellent interview with Michael

488
00:21:13,150 --> 00:21:11,200
Shermer and I sent you a copy of my

489
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:13,160
interview with Michael Shermer who is

490
00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:16,400
one of my favorite favorite frenemies in

491
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:19,780
this whole thing because he sounds so

492
00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:21,650
brilliant and yet

493
00:21:26,230 --> 00:21:23,900
it's total gobbly what he says and

494
00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:26,240
when you push it to any degree it just

495
00:21:30,430 --> 00:21:28,520
doesn't hold up it doesn't make any

496
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:30,440
sense it's like listening to Neil

497
00:21:36,250 --> 00:21:33,470
deGrasse Tyson talk about consciousness

498
00:21:39,220 --> 00:21:36,260
it's just silliness I mean it just

499
00:21:42,070 --> 00:21:39,230
doesn't make any sense so I guess one of

500
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:42,080
the questions I posed is is this worth

501
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:44,690
saving can this be recovered in the way

502
00:21:49,810 --> 00:21:47,170
that you're talking about or is this

503
00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:49,820
fundamental shift that we're talking

504
00:21:53,170 --> 00:21:51,620
about really lead us in a whole

505
00:21:55,450 --> 00:21:53,180
different direction and I guess I'd have

506
00:21:58,960 --> 00:21:55,460
to add one more problem is I always feel

507
00:22:00,760 --> 00:21:58,970
like philosophers and philosophy at this

508
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:00,770
point you know philosophy supposed to be

509
00:22:05,470 --> 00:22:02,570
keen philosophy supposed to be on top

510
00:22:08,140 --> 00:22:05,480
and I think they've been pushed down for

511
00:22:11,290 --> 00:22:08,150
so long that they're kind of careful

512
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:11,300
about saying these kind of things like

513
00:22:15,340 --> 00:22:14,090
hey you guys are all nincompoops what

514
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:15,350
you're saying doesn't make any sense

515
00:22:19,390 --> 00:22:17,170
consciousness is an illusion is

516
00:22:21,010 --> 00:22:19,400
laughable to a first-grader

517
00:22:24,010 --> 00:22:21,020
if you went and said you know your

518
00:22:26,590 --> 00:22:24,020
entire experience of your mom your dad

519
00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:26,600
your classmates your family that's all

520
00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:28,580
an illusion they would laugh in your

521
00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:31,310
face and yet we sit around and have

522
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:33,470
conferences where we debate this you

523
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:35,690
know and Sam Harris and Chalmers are

524
00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:37,670
sitting there well do you think Dan

525
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:39,500
Dennett really believes that I mean

526
00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:41,890
we're giving legitimacy to just these

527
00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:50,270
wildly insane ideas yeah does people who

528
00:22:55,630 --> 00:22:52,790
deny the existence of consciousness yeah

529
00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:55,640
I mean a very close friend of me to use

530
00:22:59,650 --> 00:22:57,770
the same term on Keith frankish who's a

531
00:23:03,280 --> 00:22:59,660
philosopher who's very good friend of

532
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:03,290
mine a very warm empathetic guy very

533
00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:05,360
kind cares about the world but he

534
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:08,030
doesn't think consciousness exists it

535
00:23:12,220 --> 00:23:09,710
was incredible to me that it you know in

536
00:23:16,090 --> 00:23:12,230
a sense he thinks you know no one has

537
00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:16,100
ever really felt pain or no so I guess

538
00:23:22,660 --> 00:23:19,150
I'm how do people get to that position

539
00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:22,670
and I think one of the big problems in

540
00:23:28,090 --> 00:23:25,340
that position that I often put to keep

541
00:23:29,470 --> 00:23:28,100
is you know all of cut all of scientific

542
00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:29,480
knowledge is mediated through

543
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:31,460
consciousness right New York you only

544
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:35,600
know that electrons because you have

545
00:23:39,910 --> 00:23:38,120
you know conscious experiences of cloud

546
00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:39,920
chambers and things you know you only

547
00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:43,430
know any scientific experimental data

548
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:45,350
because you have conscious experience of

549
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:49,370
your instruments you know so in a way

550
00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:51,530
thinking that you could have scientific

551
00:23:55,390 --> 00:23:53,150
evidence the consciousness doesn't exist

552
00:23:56,890 --> 00:23:55,400
is a bit like thinking astronomy can

553
00:23:59,860 --> 00:23:56,900
tell us that there aren't any telescopes

554
00:24:02,650 --> 00:23:59,870
you know or it's like it's kind of like

555
00:24:04,030 --> 00:24:02,660
another analogy it's like believing

556
00:24:05,530 --> 00:24:04,040
someone who tells you that they never

557
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:05,540
tell the truth you know it's sort of

558
00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:06,650
self-defeating

559
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:10,220
so I think there is you know I always

560
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:13,310
think of that Albert Albert Camus quote

561
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:15,970
there's only one philosophical question

562
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:19,850
suicide so I mean if you really believe

563
00:24:24,580 --> 00:24:22,310
I mean it I don't mean to to be too

564
00:24:26,260 --> 00:24:24,590
harsh on that and I'm not sure you know

565
00:24:28,030 --> 00:24:26,270
exactly how he meant it but the way it's

566
00:24:32,170 --> 00:24:28,040
interpreted I think is beautiful which

567
00:24:35,410 --> 00:24:32,180
is if you really believe that there is

568
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:35,420
no such thing is your experience then

569
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:38,510
you're living in a complete worthless

570
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:41,210
meaningless existence and you can't even

571
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:43,760
cop out by saying well you know maybe my

572
00:24:47,050 --> 00:24:45,710
kids will be different no there's none

573
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:47,060
of it you know that why would you

574
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:50,210
persist in the game you know yeah it's

575
00:24:53,530 --> 00:24:52,130
it's very hard to get in the mindset of

576
00:24:54,970 --> 00:24:53,540
but people say about quite a big

577
00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:54,980
philosophy of the 20th century

578
00:25:02,590 --> 00:24:58,850
Quine was a huge influence and yeah

579
00:25:03,910 --> 00:25:02,600
people he kind of famously towards the

580
00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:03,920
end of these pretty much denied the

581
00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:05,600
reality conscious consciousness but then

582
00:25:11,380 --> 00:25:07,940
people said actually when you read his

583
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:11,390
autobiography just about his life and it

584
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:15,740
seemed like he was startlingly lacking

585
00:25:21,610 --> 00:25:18,710
in introspection you know he never seems

586
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:21,620
to mention anything subjective so maybe

587
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:24,640
in a sense he somehow wasn't aware or he

588
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:26,930
didn't attend to consciousness very

589
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:29,930
often but uh so yeah I think he famously

590
00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:31,850
said actually if there's such a thing as

591
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:33,470
consciousness I'm not conscious of it or

592
00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:34,130
something

593
00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:36,980
witty thing like anyway but you know why

594
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:38,750
are people led to that I think is the

595
00:25:42,010 --> 00:25:40,610
question we need to ask now I get into

596
00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:42,020
the about the detail techie

597
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:43,910
philosophical arguments but at the end

598
00:25:48,050 --> 00:25:45,890
of the day they don't really convince

599
00:25:50,030 --> 00:25:48,060
people you got it you got to get the big

600
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:50,040
and narrative why people are in that

601
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:51,330
mindset and that's really what I'm

602
00:25:55,370 --> 00:25:52,890
trying to do with this new book that's

603
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:55,380
why it's framed in terms of going back

604
00:25:59,210 --> 00:25:57,090
to the start of the Scientific

605
00:26:02,980 --> 00:25:59,220
Revolution because I think people have

606
00:26:05,420 --> 00:26:02,990
this idea what why is Keith Frankish or

607
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:05,430
other people Daniel Dennett led to that

608
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:08,130
because they're blown away by how

609
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:10,170
successful science is you ain't got

610
00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:12,330
lights and hair dryers and men on the

611
00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:14,550
moon and they you know they're impressed

612
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:17,160
by that and it is impressive but it's

613
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:19,530
drawing the right moral from that so

614
00:26:23,690 --> 00:26:21,210
they think oh it's it's so impressive

615
00:26:26,510 --> 00:26:23,700
that must mean it can tell us everything

616
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:26,520
whereas I say it's so impressive because

617
00:26:30,230 --> 00:26:28,080
it was never supposed to tell us

618
00:26:32,930 --> 00:26:30,240
everything because it was always focused

619
00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:32,940
on this very narrow task and I think it

620
00:26:37,550 --> 00:26:34,950
you know he can persuade people of that

621
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:37,560
narrative you know that that big picture

622
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:39,810
of yes physical sides has been

623
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:42,720
successful book do you enjoy a different

624
00:26:49,670 --> 00:26:45,710
implication from its can start to change

625
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:49,680
but yeah I don't think I agree with you

626
00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:50,730
that I don't want to take these people

627
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:52,320
seriously though right you know I think

628
00:26:57,890 --> 00:26:56,130
I think there's I don't know these

629
00:27:02,030 --> 00:26:57,900
questions apart these questions are very

630
00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:02,040
abstract I'm happy for all sorts of

631
00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:04,260
people to defend all sorts of different

632
00:27:10,940 --> 00:27:07,620
things and you know see where we end up

633
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:10,950
okay let me kind of come at it a

634
00:27:15,290 --> 00:27:13,440
different way cuz I don't disagree with

635
00:27:18,290 --> 00:27:15,300
you on that and and I certainly agree

636
00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:18,300
with you that the the accomplishments of

637
00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:20,550
engineering over the last century

638
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:22,980
certainly are mind-blowing and you just

639
00:27:26,510 --> 00:27:25,170
can't get past them and they are

640
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:26,520
overwhelming but I think there's two

641
00:27:30,890 --> 00:27:28,710
other things at play that we have to

642
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:30,900
consider I would I think they're at play

643
00:27:36,410 --> 00:27:32,970
and we can talk about whether they are

644
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:36,420
or not but one is our understanding of

645
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:39,600
consciousness this limited understanding

646
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:43,170
this an income poopourri about

647
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:45,690
consciousness as a social engineering

648
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:48,890
project so I sent you a link right

649
00:27:52,910 --> 00:27:51,210
before the show on I apologize for not

650
00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:52,920
sending it you too too far in advance

651
00:27:56,780 --> 00:27:54,510
but I didn't think about it but there's

652
00:27:59,870 --> 00:27:56,790
recently been a huge dump of CIA

653
00:28:01,370 --> 00:27:59,880
documents related to their projects

654
00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:01,380
related to

655
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:04,110
psychic spying Project Star Gate which

656
00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:05,310
we've talked a lot about on this show

657
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:08,190
but other projects as well grill flame

658
00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:09,450
and there's all these other ones the

659
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:11,340
minutes the men that stare at goats

660
00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:14,640
thing the point of all that is that for

661
00:28:21,170 --> 00:28:18,540
the last 50 years those organizations

662
00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:21,180
and operations both in the US and in

663
00:28:25,670 --> 00:28:24,420
other countries have never have gone way

664
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:25,680
past all this

665
00:28:30,530 --> 00:28:28,230
well that's silliness of course we know

666
00:28:33,530 --> 00:28:30,540
that consciousness is real we know that

667
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:33,540
extended consciousness in these ways

668
00:28:39,710 --> 00:28:36,450
that science clearly can't understand we

669
00:28:41,630 --> 00:28:39,720
know that's real so is there a game a

670
00:28:44,930 --> 00:28:41,640
little bit of gaming of this system

671
00:28:48,190 --> 00:28:44,940
going on let's let all these folks just

672
00:28:51,650 --> 00:28:48,200
go along with that idea and let's not

673
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:51,660
necessarily introduce this new idea to

674
00:28:56,330 --> 00:28:53,880
the general public and that is that we

675
00:28:59,600 --> 00:28:56,340
know that consciousness is much more

676
00:29:03,320 --> 00:28:59,610
expansive so let's start there is there

677
00:29:05,930 --> 00:29:03,330
potentially a social engineering aspect

678
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:05,940
to our limited understanding of

679
00:29:13,550 --> 00:29:08,850
consciousness that's a very interesting

680
00:29:15,910 --> 00:29:13,560
proposition it's not I guess in I I

681
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:15,920
spent a lot of time arguing with

682
00:29:19,850 --> 00:29:18,210
materialists and people who don't

683
00:29:22,340 --> 00:29:19,860
believe in consciousness and people who

684
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:22,350
have waited to use me I guess I ain't

685
00:29:28,430 --> 00:29:25,530
really persuaded that people actually

686
00:29:30,020 --> 00:29:28,440
believe that and and I think I

687
00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:30,030
understand why they believe that it's

688
00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:32,550
something to do with being blown away by

689
00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:34,430
the success of Technology or something

690
00:29:38,980 --> 00:29:37,380
so you're saying now that that just to

691
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:38,990
be clear I mean the two are not mutually

692
00:29:43,940 --> 00:29:40,890
exclusive I mean the way social

693
00:29:46,430 --> 00:29:43,950
engineering works is we do not let the

694
00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:46,440
game play and we just lay down the

695
00:29:50,750 --> 00:29:48,360
cheese where we want the rats to go in

696
00:29:51,380 --> 00:29:50,760
the maze so you know in academia it's

697
00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:51,390
really easy

698
00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:53,070
who gets the grants who gets promoted

699
00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:55,230
who doesn't get promoted who doesn't get

700
00:29:59,240 --> 00:29:57,600
tenure and they get pruned off the tree

701
00:30:00,530 --> 00:29:59,250
and at the end of the day you wind up

702
00:30:02,990 --> 00:30:00,540
with what we have now

703
00:30:05,270 --> 00:30:03,000
you know we wind up with with you

704
00:30:06,529 --> 00:30:05,280
arguing with who's the kind of religion

705
00:30:08,959 --> 00:30:06,539
guy that

706
00:30:11,089 --> 00:30:08,969
Jerry Coyne it winds up with you

707
00:30:13,249 --> 00:30:11,099
debating with Jerry Coyne which again I

708
00:30:15,979 --> 00:30:13,259
I know I people pushback when I say this

709
00:30:18,649 --> 00:30:15,989
but he's just really incompetent I mean

710
00:30:20,569 --> 00:30:18,659
I've had him on the show and he just

711
00:30:22,459 --> 00:30:20,579
blows like you pointed out in your

712
00:30:25,489 --> 00:30:22,469
debate with him he just gets major

713
00:30:25,969 --> 00:30:25,499
things wrong that he's supposed to know

714
00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:25,979
about

715
00:30:30,859 --> 00:30:28,849
and yet he's put forward and propped up

716
00:30:33,349 --> 00:30:30,869
University of Chicago been around

717
00:30:34,609 --> 00:30:33,359
forever and this goes on and on so that

718
00:30:36,939 --> 00:30:34,619
that's the social engineering project

719
00:30:39,859 --> 00:30:36,949
not that people don't legitimately

720
00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:39,869
believe you know they believe it's just

721
00:30:45,109 --> 00:30:42,569
that the people who are really thinking

722
00:30:47,689 --> 00:30:45,119
this thing through are not presented as

723
00:30:49,369 --> 00:30:47,699
credible clean might be good I don't

724
00:30:50,539 --> 00:30:49,379
know in particularly his work but I

725
00:30:52,669 --> 00:30:50,549
guess he might be good at what he's

726
00:30:54,979 --> 00:30:52,679
doing like I mean you know like Dawkins

727
00:30:56,719 --> 00:30:54,989
and Tyson and these people I mean as far

728
00:30:58,669 --> 00:30:56,729
as I know I'm you know I'm not an expert

729
00:31:00,709 --> 00:30:58,679
in their field but I think you know

730
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:00,719
they're good at what they're doing but

731
00:31:06,739 --> 00:31:04,799
they get a platform to speak on issues

732
00:31:09,769 --> 00:31:06,749
why are we have to side a barrier

733
00:31:12,139 --> 00:31:09,779
expertise and I think that's part of

734
00:31:16,339 --> 00:31:12,149
this not understanding what philosophy

735
00:31:19,099 --> 00:31:16,349
is you know this scientistic culture and

736
00:31:22,459 --> 00:31:19,109
I guess look I'll read the things you

737
00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:22,469
sent I haven't I hadn't you know at time

738
00:31:27,949 --> 00:31:26,129
you know it since without reading those

739
00:31:29,839 --> 00:31:27,959
Philip in general you want you

740
00:31:31,729 --> 00:31:29,849
understand the proposition is that this

741
00:31:34,849 --> 00:31:31,739
stuff goes on like so the remote viewing

742
00:31:36,709 --> 00:31:34,859
research this the MKULTRA research is

743
00:31:38,809 --> 00:31:36,719
all about consciousness so all this

744
00:31:41,180 --> 00:31:38,819
stuff has been going on for 50 years at

745
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:41,190
this deep level of consciousness that

746
00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:44,690
totally is stands in contrast to

747
00:31:50,209 --> 00:31:47,249
academic understanding of consciousness

748
00:31:53,299 --> 00:31:50,219
I just don't love to look into it I mean

749
00:31:56,569 --> 00:31:53,309
I guess I feel like I have a decent

750
00:31:59,930 --> 00:31:56,579
explanation of why people like Jerry

751
00:32:01,849 --> 00:31:59,940
Cohen like Tyson are believing the

752
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:01,859
things they believe even though to my

753
00:32:05,899 --> 00:32:04,769
mind they seem crazy and so but then

754
00:32:09,619 --> 00:32:05,909
you're now telling me that this other

755
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:09,629
explanation involving things that are

756
00:32:13,609 --> 00:32:11,849
just generally accepted that it's sort

757
00:32:14,989 --> 00:32:13,619
of being hidden or something I mean I

758
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:14,999
guess I just have to look into that I

759
00:32:22,580 --> 00:32:20,010
just I I guess I it's not something I

760
00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:22,590
I had a great deal of experience though

761
00:32:27,769 --> 00:32:26,070
so yeah I don't know what there is

762
00:32:29,769 --> 00:32:27,779
really to look into what well I mean

763
00:32:32,779 --> 00:32:29,779
because we'll never know right I mean

764
00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:32,789
we'll never know to what to what extent

765
00:32:37,070 --> 00:32:34,799
these people are propped up or to what

766
00:32:39,289 --> 00:32:37,080
extent there's another agenda to me it's

767
00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:39,299
kind of like back to the parapsychology

768
00:32:43,310 --> 00:32:41,340
and near-death experience science stuff

769
00:32:46,519 --> 00:32:43,320
you know like near-death experience

770
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:46,529
science at this point over 200 papers

771
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:49,130
published in peer-reviewed journals a

772
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:52,559
literal almost complete consensus among

773
00:32:58,159 --> 00:32:56,159
people researchers mainly in the medical

774
00:33:01,820 --> 00:32:58,169
field who studied near-death experience

775
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:01,830
a yep by the best way we can look at the

776
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:03,450
data the only way we can look at the

777
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:05,610
data consciousness seems to survive

778
00:33:10,129 --> 00:33:08,250
bodily death and if you're not

779
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:10,139
comfortable with bodily death it seems

780
00:33:15,049 --> 00:33:13,230
to survive these brain states that we do

781
00:33:19,159 --> 00:33:15,059
not understand how they could possibly

782
00:33:21,889 --> 00:33:19,169
produce consciousness so you know we're

783
00:33:23,740 --> 00:33:21,899
in no-man's land here it doesn't make

784
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:23,750
sense to come back and talk about

785
00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:28,250
neuroscience quote-unquote until that

786
00:33:33,889 --> 00:33:31,260
problem if you will or that question is

787
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:33,899
resolved and yet we continue to do that

788
00:33:37,940 --> 00:33:35,970
and not only that there's this huge

789
00:33:40,129 --> 00:33:37,950
backlash which on one hand is

790
00:33:42,350 --> 00:33:40,139
understandable that you know anything

791
00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:42,360
that's gonna totally change the paradigm

792
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:46,049
and cause you to lose your long history

793
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:47,850
of research is going to be rebelled

794
00:33:58,730 --> 00:33:50,820
against but they're all the same to me

795
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,740
I'm whether they're very related so at

796
00:34:04,850 --> 00:34:00,480
the end of the day what neuroscience

797
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:04,860
gives you correlations between certain

798
00:34:09,079 --> 00:34:06,769
things happening in the brain and

799
00:34:11,180 --> 00:34:09,089
certain thing and certain kinds of

800
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:11,190
conscious experience you know so you can

801
00:34:15,319 --> 00:34:13,290
scan people's brain and you can ask them

802
00:34:17,569 --> 00:34:15,329
how they're feeling and we can get some

803
00:34:20,540 --> 00:34:17,579
data about correlations and then we can

804
00:34:21,919 --> 00:34:20,550
start to think about that I take it well

805
00:34:23,389 --> 00:34:21,929
I'll ask you in a minute I mean I take

806
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:23,399
it maybe you can agree with that

807
00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:25,770
understanding of your aside and maybe

808
00:34:32,869 --> 00:34:29,730
maybe you disagree but so I just think

809
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:32,879
that's completely neutral on any sort of

810
00:34:35,770 --> 00:34:33,679
philosophic

811
00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:35,780
theoria consciousness because i mean

812
00:34:39,430 --> 00:34:37,129
that people have this idea that

813
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:39,440
neuroscience is supporting materialism

814
00:34:45,790 --> 00:34:42,800
but and your your querying that from one

815
00:34:48,669 --> 00:34:45,800
angle but actually it's a non-starter

816
00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:48,679
anyway because neuroscience just gives

817
00:34:53,980 --> 00:34:52,700
you correlations at best let's say and

818
00:34:56,559 --> 00:34:53,990
that's not a theory of consciousness

819
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,569
right because to get a theory of

820
00:35:01,720 --> 00:34:58,400
consciousness we want to explain those

821
00:35:04,510 --> 00:35:01,730
correlations you know why is it that you

822
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:04,520
know certain things going on in the

823
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:06,890
brain sometimes at least correspond to

824
00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:09,050
consciousness certain conscious states

825
00:35:11,980 --> 00:35:10,550
know the dualist can give one

826
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:11,990
explanation the materialists given

827
00:35:15,730 --> 00:35:13,730
over-the-pants I kissed my own favorite

828
00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:15,740
you can give another and we can fight

829
00:35:19,690 --> 00:35:18,440
over it but but neuroscience in itself I

830
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:19,700
would just say it's neutral so I don't

831
00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:21,650
think you meter so I would say back to

832
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:22,880
you I guess I don't think you need to

833
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:24,160
worry about neuroscience because

834
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:27,920
properly understood it's just neutral

835
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:30,410
data right it's not a theory it's not it

836
00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:31,910
doesn't depend on materialism or

837
00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:32,720
anything like that

838
00:35:37,380 --> 00:35:34,670
yeah but that's not what neuroscience

839
00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:37,390
thinks that's not what neuroscience

840
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:39,470
neuroscience is built in on the idea

841
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:42,530
that consciousness is a property of the

842
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:45,170
brain it's an epiphenomena than I don't

843
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:47,210
agree I think who are you pointing to I

844
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:51,170
mean I you know Sam Harris who I mean

845
00:35:55,450 --> 00:35:53,510
all the people I've interviewed but it

846
00:35:57,359 --> 00:35:55,460
put that aside for a second because a

847
00:35:59,890 --> 00:35:57,369
near-death experience

848
00:36:01,180 --> 00:35:59,900
we're totally off reservation on that

849
00:36:03,549 --> 00:36:01,190
right because we no longer have those

850
00:36:04,990 --> 00:36:03,559
correlates we have consciousness and we

851
00:36:08,260 --> 00:36:05,000
no longer have the correlates right

852
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:08,270
right so the brain is now measurably

853
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:10,640
dead by the way that we define it and

854
00:36:16,059 --> 00:36:12,710
people are having these profound

855
00:36:18,130 --> 00:36:16,069
conscious experiences and we know that

856
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:18,140
because when we carefully study it

857
00:36:23,380 --> 00:36:21,440
they're recalling things more

858
00:36:24,910 --> 00:36:23,390
significantly than people that don't

859
00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:24,920
have near-death experiences and

860
00:36:30,059 --> 00:36:28,190
impossibly if it's true things that

861
00:36:33,130 --> 00:36:30,069
occurred when their brain was

862
00:36:34,510 --> 00:36:33,140
essentially dead so if the whole thing

863
00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:34,520
is shattered I just don't think we can

864
00:36:39,819 --> 00:36:37,460
put all the pieces back together so two

865
00:36:41,530 --> 00:36:39,829
things I guess I mean one thing you know

866
00:36:42,910 --> 00:36:41,540
this might sound like a pedantic point

867
00:36:45,130 --> 00:36:42,920
but I don't think that challenges in

868
00:36:46,470 --> 00:36:45,140
neuroscience you know I think that

869
00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:46,480
challenges

870
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,030
certain theories that people might

871
00:36:54,330 --> 00:36:51,520
extract from neuroscience they might say

872
00:36:55,859 --> 00:36:54,340
no they might say that they think you

873
00:36:57,599 --> 00:36:55,869
know consciousness is never like you're

874
00:36:59,849 --> 00:36:57,609
just giving a different area of the

875
00:37:01,560 --> 00:36:59,859
correlations you're saying sometimes you

876
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:01,570
have consciousness when you don't have

877
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:03,040
anything in the brain so that's a

878
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:05,920
different kind of view of the empirical

879
00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:07,810
equipment but you know the neuroscience

880
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:09,910
is I would say it's neutral on that yeah

881
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:11,290
I think you could say I'm firing

882
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:13,119
neuroscience I just disagree with

883
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:16,450
materialism which some people I guess

884
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:19,210
many neuroscientists are materialists

885
00:37:22,859 --> 00:37:20,770
but I want to say that separate from

886
00:37:24,390 --> 00:37:22,869
their what they're officially doing is

887
00:37:25,859 --> 00:37:24,400
neuroscientists which is building

888
00:37:27,870 --> 00:37:25,869
correlations I think you know you could

889
00:37:30,210 --> 00:37:27,880
agree even if you think consciousness

890
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:30,220
can exist outside of a brain you can

891
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:31,570
still agree that you know there are many

892
00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:33,760
correlations like feelings of hunger

893
00:37:37,830 --> 00:37:35,830
tend to be correlated with you know

894
00:37:38,970 --> 00:37:37,840
certain bits of the brain and so on so I

895
00:37:40,590 --> 00:37:38,980
don't think you need to deny your

896
00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:40,600
assigned anyway that's maybe a slightly

897
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:43,540
pedantic point though I it's good I like

898
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:45,250
it I just I just looked up on our

899
00:37:49,890 --> 00:37:47,530
friends at Wikipedia the most untrusted

900
00:37:52,590 --> 00:37:49,900
source on the Internet neuroscience the

901
00:37:55,609 --> 00:37:52,600
understanding of the biological basis of

902
00:37:59,670 --> 00:37:55,619
learning memory behavior perception and

903
00:38:02,609 --> 00:37:59,680
consciousness described as the ultimate

904
00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:02,619
challenge of biological sciences no I

905
00:38:10,170 --> 00:38:07,020
think these guys claim that they are

906
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:10,180
understanding the biological basis of

907
00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:12,130
consciousness along with learning memory

908
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:14,380
behavior and everything else well I mean

909
00:38:18,690 --> 00:38:16,960
that way of describing it is in tension

910
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:18,700
with how I think of neuroscience or

911
00:38:22,770 --> 00:38:20,410
maybe there's a fight out here over what

912
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:22,780
neuroscience is I you know I would call

913
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:23,200
neuro

914
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:28,710
up-to-date as possible but you know

915
00:38:33,570 --> 00:38:31,530
conscious consciousness itself is

916
00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:33,580
unobservable you know you can't look

917
00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:35,980
inside I've never had anyone deny that

918
00:38:39,330 --> 00:38:37,600
who believes in consciousness you can't

919
00:38:41,460 --> 00:38:39,340
look inside someone's head and see their

920
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:41,470
feelings and experiences all the

921
00:38:45,359 --> 00:38:43,210
neuroscientists can do is see what's

922
00:38:47,310 --> 00:38:45,369
going on in the brain and so it seems to

923
00:38:49,470 --> 00:38:47,320
me to follow from that but really what

924
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:49,480
what they're accessing if you're just

925
00:38:53,820 --> 00:38:51,970
focusing on what they can get up through

926
00:38:57,210 --> 00:38:53,830
observation it seems to me all they can

927
00:38:59,760 --> 00:38:57,220
get as correlations they might then you

928
00:39:03,210 --> 00:38:59,770
know take themselves to offer some

929
00:39:05,220 --> 00:39:03,220
the area of you know how consciousness

930
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:05,230
is explained in terms of brain processes

931
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:07,210
and I you know I would question that on

932
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:10,450
philosophical grounds but yeah I mean

933
00:39:13,410 --> 00:39:12,160
maybe maybe there's a fight here that

934
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:13,420
needs to be had Oh over what

935
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:19,170
neurosciences but uh yeah look I guess

936
00:39:25,470 --> 00:39:23,530
we're both challenging materialism from

937
00:39:27,570 --> 00:39:25,480
different angles right you're

938
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:27,580
challenging it on empirical grounds

939
00:39:32,190 --> 00:39:30,010
you're saying there's this evidence but

940
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:32,200
it's false you know I don't know about

941
00:39:35,940 --> 00:39:33,520
that that's not something I've looked

942
00:39:37,290 --> 00:39:35,950
into a great deal you know you can send

943
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:37,300
me stuff on it and I'll look into it and

944
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:39,280
think about it I guess I'm challenging

945
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:41,920
it on on on philosophical grounds I just

946
00:39:49,470 --> 00:39:45,510
think for me the essential issue is that

947
00:39:51,890 --> 00:39:49,480
consciousness is a purely sorry physical

948
00:39:55,380 --> 00:39:51,900
science works with a purely quantitative

949
00:39:57,420 --> 00:39:55,390
vocabulary whereas consciousness is an

950
00:39:59,970 --> 00:39:57,430
essentially qualitative phenomenon it

951
00:40:02,280 --> 00:39:59,980
involves qualities the redness of a red

952
00:40:04,980 --> 00:40:02,290
experience you know the smell of coffee

953
00:40:08,190 --> 00:40:04,990
the taste of men and it you can't

954
00:40:09,990 --> 00:40:08,200
capture those kind of qualities in the

955
00:40:11,940 --> 00:40:10,000
purely quantitative of Cabul area

956
00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:11,950
physical science so I think you know

957
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:14,280
that I think really materialism in

958
00:40:20,190 --> 00:40:17,050
incoherent on philosophical grounds

959
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:20,200
because it's trying to you know if you

960
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:22,090
if you're gonna have a purely

961
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:23,770
quantitative vocabulary

962
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:25,450
you're never gonna capture those kind of

963
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:27,310
qualities so I returned yet on

964
00:40:31,410 --> 00:40:29,290
philosophical grounds whereas I guess

965
00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:31,420
you're challenging it from addition more

966
00:40:36,330 --> 00:40:34,480
empirical angle no I like that and I

967
00:40:38,580 --> 00:40:36,340
like what you bring forward with that

968
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:38,590
and hey you like you say we are really

969
00:40:43,140 --> 00:40:40,930
in the same side here in terms of

970
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:43,150
throwing stones that scientific

971
00:40:47,490 --> 00:40:44,410
materialism as it applies to

972
00:40:49,110 --> 00:40:47,500
consciousness it's just a good chat to

973
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:49,120
have you know and we've kind of covered

974
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:51,280
some ground here in terms of

975
00:40:54,570 --> 00:40:52,720
understanding the pushback on

976
00:40:57,570 --> 00:40:54,580
materialism when we say first we

977
00:40:59,970 --> 00:40:57,580
understand that people are scientists if

978
00:41:01,380 --> 00:40:59,980
you will and to a certain extent the

979
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:01,390
general public although I think the

980
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:03,040
general public is really kind of more on

981
00:41:08,340 --> 00:41:05,530
our side when you really break it down

982
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:08,350
and start asking the questions about do

983
00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:11,230
you believe in love do you believe in

984
00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:13,359
the connection you have with

985
00:41:17,309 --> 00:41:15,190
other people you know even if you ask

986
00:41:19,229 --> 00:41:17,319
people if they believe in ghosts and

987
00:41:21,329 --> 00:41:19,239
spirits which are way outside you know

988
00:41:23,069 --> 00:41:21,339
there's a significant number of people

989
00:41:25,229 --> 00:41:23,079
believe in that so I think the public is

990
00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:25,239
really kind of on our side who are

991
00:41:32,339 --> 00:41:27,960
really who's outside of this loop is a

992
00:41:34,859 --> 00:41:32,349
relatively small group of materialist

993
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:34,869
scientists who we don't understand and

994
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,650
that's one of things we've been

995
00:41:40,410 --> 00:41:37,839
processing here is what's the agenda and

996
00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:40,420
you've suggested that part of the agenda

997
00:41:44,759 --> 00:41:42,839
is just they're just blown away by the

998
00:41:47,099 --> 00:41:44,769
accomplishments of engineering and the

999
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:47,109
iPhone is freaking fantastic even though

1000
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:49,210
I'm an Android guy that's fantastic so

1001
00:41:54,509 --> 00:41:51,970
great hats off and then number two we

1002
00:41:56,519 --> 00:41:54,519
said there's also the potential for

1003
00:41:58,799 --> 00:41:56,529
social engineering and that's I'm

1004
00:42:01,529 --> 00:41:58,809
definitely on board with that and you

1005
00:42:03,359 --> 00:42:01,539
not so much the third thing I think that

1006
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:03,369
I want to bring up because you do have

1007
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:06,130
an excellent blog and it's people should

1008
00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:07,690
check it out you talk about not only

1009
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:10,630
consciousness but then you roll that in

1010
00:42:16,049 --> 00:42:13,210
to social issues and political issues

1011
00:42:17,970 --> 00:42:16,059
and stuff that's going on there so the

1012
00:42:21,420 --> 00:42:17,980
third thing I want to point out there is

1013
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:21,430
I think part of the reactionary thing

1014
00:42:25,349 --> 00:42:23,130
that we get from mainstream

1015
00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:25,359
materialistic science I think is on

1016
00:42:30,059 --> 00:42:27,880
religious grounds and you touched on

1017
00:42:32,809 --> 00:42:30,069
this in a recent blog post that I was

1018
00:42:35,579 --> 00:42:32,819
alluding to because it raised the ire of

1019
00:42:37,979 --> 00:42:35,589
head priest Jerry Coyne at University of

1020
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:37,989
Chicago one of the last remaining raging

1021
00:42:44,370 --> 00:42:41,710
atheists but you titled it religion but

1022
00:42:46,799 --> 00:42:44,380
not as we know it so I thought that

1023
00:42:49,019 --> 00:42:46,809
would be an interesting maybe final

1024
00:42:50,999 --> 00:42:49,029
topic to talk about here today and then

1025
00:42:52,739 --> 00:42:51,009
we can get back and talk some more about

1026
00:42:54,690 --> 00:42:52,749
your books but tell me what you were

1027
00:42:57,079 --> 00:42:54,700
going for there and and how it relates

1028
00:43:00,239 --> 00:42:57,089
to these issues of consciousness yeah

1029
00:43:03,029 --> 00:43:00,249
that was the title of the blog post and

1030
00:43:05,759 --> 00:43:03,039
that was my response to Jerry cone Jerry

1031
00:43:08,130 --> 00:43:05,769
Coyne sorry but and it was following on

1032
00:43:09,930 --> 00:43:08,140
from an article I published in that

1033
00:43:13,650 --> 00:43:09,940
Times Literary Supplement last week

1034
00:43:17,059 --> 00:43:13,660
called believers without belief so I was

1035
00:43:20,220 --> 00:43:17,069
exploring alternative approaches to

1036
00:43:23,279 --> 00:43:20,230
engaging with conventional Western

1037
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:23,289
religion like Christianity Judaism Islam

1038
00:43:28,380 --> 00:43:26,650
and so one of them for example what

1039
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:28,390
what's known as religious fictional ISM

1040
00:43:34,890 --> 00:43:32,050
so the the religious fiction is someone

1041
00:43:39,620 --> 00:43:34,900
who you know goes to church or temple

1042
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:39,630
pray they think the contentious

1043
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:41,530
propositions of religion like I don't

1044
00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:43,930
know God exists or Jesus rose from the

1045
00:43:46,410 --> 00:43:44,380
dead

1046
00:43:48,690 --> 00:43:46,420
they think they're false strictly

1047
00:43:51,060 --> 00:43:48,700
speaking right so it sounds like a kind

1048
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:51,070
of contradiction but but the thought is

1049
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:54,640
that the certain a certain value certain

1050
00:44:00,660 --> 00:43:56,710
people and as individuals or in a

1051
00:44:02,730 --> 00:44:00,670
community maybe get out of religious

1052
00:44:04,830 --> 00:44:02,740
practice that is independent of whether

1053
00:44:07,620 --> 00:44:04,840
these you know the discourse is

1054
00:44:09,810 --> 00:44:07,630
literally true so like there are

1055
00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:09,820
stronger and weaker forms of this you

1056
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:11,560
know a really strong form would be

1057
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:12,970
someone who has to know the same

1058
00:44:16,770 --> 00:44:14,890
worldview as Richard Dawkins but still

1059
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:16,780
goes to church and though you know there

1060
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:18,130
are there are there are people like that

1061
00:44:22,860 --> 00:44:20,050
although it's may be difficult to see

1062
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:22,870
the motivation but you know a more and

1063
00:44:28,410 --> 00:44:25,530
more moderate form would be someone who

1064
00:44:32,220 --> 00:44:28,420
believes in some kind of transcendent

1065
00:44:34,050 --> 00:44:32,230
spiritual reality but doesn't believe in

1066
00:44:36,990 --> 00:44:34,060
a personal God doesn't believe in that

1067
00:44:40,850 --> 00:44:37,000
God has traditionally construed and so

1068
00:44:43,950 --> 00:44:40,860
they you know they they engage in

1069
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:43,960
Christian on Judaic ritual and discourse

1070
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:46,960
but they take they take that as as as

1071
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:49,690
non-literal as metaphorical you know

1072
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:52,570
conceiving of the transcendent

1073
00:44:58,740 --> 00:44:56,400
as a loving parent for example as a

1074
00:45:02,040 --> 00:44:58,750
person and that's understood as an

1075
00:45:04,620 --> 00:45:02,050
important part of the practice even if

1076
00:45:06,660 --> 00:45:04,630
it's not literally true and actually you

1077
00:45:12,090 --> 00:45:06,670
know that this this is this historically

1078
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:12,100
was a very mainstream in Christianity

1079
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:14,470
certainly a very mainstream position you

1080
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:16,450
know Aquinas as view comes close to this

1081
00:45:21,210 --> 00:45:18,400
and it sort of been forgotten about I

1082
00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:21,220
think you know since the Scientific

1083
00:45:23,940 --> 00:45:22,420
Revolution and the Protestant

1084
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:23,950
Reformation where we start to get these

1085
00:45:29,550 --> 00:45:26,890
wars with science and so now I just like

1086
00:45:32,940 --> 00:45:29,560
to remind people that you know it's

1087
00:45:34,770 --> 00:45:32,950
having a lot of people who think a lot

1088
00:45:36,510 --> 00:45:34,780
of people call themselves spiritual but

1089
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:36,520
not religious because they think you

1090
00:45:41,490 --> 00:45:39,520
know I don't believe this sort of

1091
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:41,500
God has traditionally construed in

1092
00:45:47,310 --> 00:45:45,130
Christianity say but you know there are

1093
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:47,320
these alternative ways of understanding

1094
00:45:51,540 --> 00:45:49,810
what's going on in there that you know

1095
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:51,550
might be helpful for some people who

1096
00:45:57,450 --> 00:45:54,370
could you know fit with a way of fitting

1097
00:45:59,900 --> 00:45:57,460
with their own personal religious views

1098
00:46:02,670 --> 00:45:59,910
while still perhaps engaging with a

1099
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,680
cultural form that you know it's

1100
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:04,720
familiar to them and you know more

1101
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:06,490
suited to them maybe I thought that was

1102
00:46:11,850 --> 00:46:08,910
that was the broad spoken like a true

1103
00:46:14,930 --> 00:46:11,860
academic philosopher you're kind of on

1104
00:46:17,150 --> 00:46:14,940
the outside looking in here people are

1105
00:46:19,790 --> 00:46:17,160
drawn to religion

1106
00:46:22,410 --> 00:46:19,800
because they have an underlying

1107
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:22,420
spiritually transformative experience

1108
00:46:25,980 --> 00:46:24,130
and they have it in all sorts of

1109
00:46:29,850 --> 00:46:25,990
different ways and then they try and

1110
00:46:32,430 --> 00:46:29,860
relate it to these organs in stitute

1111
00:46:34,470 --> 00:46:32,440
that are propped up I mean do you

1112
00:46:37,110 --> 00:46:34,480
believe there are such things as

1113
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:37,120
spiritually transformative experiences

1114
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:38,970
do you believe there are such things as

1115
00:46:44,430 --> 00:46:41,530
extended consciousness realms where

1116
00:46:45,900 --> 00:46:44,440
spirits exist and I'm not gonna pick on

1117
00:46:47,910 --> 00:46:45,910
you if you say one way or another but

1118
00:46:50,070 --> 00:46:47,920
that seems to be the fundamental

1119
00:46:51,870 --> 00:46:50,080
question well let me say this I mean I

1120
00:46:54,860 --> 00:46:51,880
guess to some extent I'm agnostic I'm

1121
00:46:57,230 --> 00:46:54,870
definitely an atheist about the

1122
00:46:59,460 --> 00:46:57,240
traditional conception of God

1123
00:47:01,020 --> 00:46:59,470
all-knowing all-powerful perfectly good

1124
00:47:04,650 --> 00:47:01,030
just because it's the problem of evil

1125
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:04,660
and suffering problem of reconciling the

1126
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:06,400
suffering we find in the world with an

1127
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:09,520
all-powerful and loving God yeah I find

1128
00:47:16,590 --> 00:47:14,110
that to be very overwhelming case but in

1129
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:16,600
terms of let me say one thing that

1130
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:18,010
actually I could talk it so I talked a

1131
00:47:23,490 --> 00:47:19,930
little bit of in my new in my new book

1132
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:23,500
about mystical experiences now I've

1133
00:47:26,870 --> 00:47:25,090
never had a mystical experience I guess

1134
00:47:29,010 --> 00:47:26,880
it's partly what you're talking about

1135
00:47:32,100 --> 00:47:29,020
spiritually transformative experiences

1136
00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:32,110
so I've never had one myself a lie I

1137
00:47:40,140 --> 00:47:35,710
meditate every day but I'm still waiting

1138
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:40,150
but so I guess to that extent I've got

1139
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:43,330
to be somewhat agnostic but what I do

1140
00:47:48,750 --> 00:47:46,570
want to say so I'm upon psychist which I

1141
00:47:50,700 --> 00:47:48,760
can Rita that much about but I'm you

1142
00:47:52,380 --> 00:47:50,710
know I think the fundamental nature of

1143
00:47:54,930 --> 00:47:52,390
the material universe

1144
00:47:55,710 --> 00:47:54,940
in is in some sense constituted of

1145
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:55,720
consciousness

1146
00:47:59,309 --> 00:47:57,130
so I'm upon Cyprus but on a pond

1147
00:48:00,930 --> 00:47:59,319
psychist you know not for spiritual

1148
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:00,940
reasons but because I think it's you

1149
00:48:06,150 --> 00:48:04,210
know the best account of consciousness

1150
00:48:13,620 --> 00:48:06,160
the best way of bringing consciousness

1151
00:48:18,210 --> 00:48:13,630
into our worldview but what I was think

1152
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:18,220
if you're a pun psychist so let me

1153
00:48:24,180 --> 00:48:21,130
rephrase this so I don't know whether

1154
00:48:26,999 --> 00:48:24,190
these spiritual experiences are genuine

1155
00:48:29,009 --> 00:48:27,009
insights into reality or whether they're

1156
00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:29,019
had delusions caused by something going

1157
00:48:36,180 --> 00:48:32,680
wrong in the brain but if you're have a

1158
00:48:38,249 --> 00:48:36,190
pun psychist worldview there's much less

1159
00:48:41,489 --> 00:48:38,259
pressure to say they're delusions right

1160
00:48:43,470 --> 00:48:41,499
that's what I want to say so like you

1161
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:43,480
know a lot of people having people

1162
00:48:49,950 --> 00:48:46,450
having mystical experiences claim that

1163
00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:49,960
it becomes apparent to them that there

1164
00:48:55,470 --> 00:48:52,569
is this pure universal consciousness

1165
00:48:58,019 --> 00:48:55,480
that underlies all things right now if

1166
00:48:59,460 --> 00:48:58,029
you're a materialist there's a lot of

1167
00:49:01,529 --> 00:48:59,470
pressure to say that must be a delusion

1168
00:49:02,910 --> 00:49:01,539
right that's just something funny gone

1169
00:49:03,660 --> 00:49:02,920
in the brain but if you're a pun

1170
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:03,670
psychist

1171
00:49:09,329 --> 00:49:07,359
and you already think the fundamental

1172
00:49:11,339 --> 00:49:09,339
nature of physical reality is made up of

1173
00:49:16,289 --> 00:49:11,349
consciousness well you know there's not

1174
00:49:18,509 --> 00:49:16,299
more of a further step just a well maybe

1175
00:49:20,430 --> 00:49:18,519
this universal consciousness somehow

1176
00:49:23,279 --> 00:49:20,440
underlies these more mundane forms of

1177
00:49:24,420 --> 00:49:23,289
consciousness so you're much more opens

1178
00:49:27,089 --> 00:49:24,430
eyes upon psychist

1179
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:27,099
and much more open to that possibility

1180
00:49:33,749 --> 00:49:29,890
and you know I think in general that

1181
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:33,759
it's pump cycles and is a lot better for

1182
00:49:38,910 --> 00:49:35,680
our kind of spiritual health as a

1183
00:49:41,609 --> 00:49:38,920
worldview so I'm much more open in that

1184
00:49:44,430 --> 00:49:41,619
regard but and I guess I have I guess I

1185
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:44,440
would say I have I've had fleeting

1186
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:47,410
experiences when you you know certain

1187
00:49:50,759 --> 00:49:49,210
deep experience of beauty where you do

1188
00:49:54,359 --> 00:49:50,769
seem to have a fleeting awareness of

1189
00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:54,369
something like that but I guess I'm

1190
00:49:58,890 --> 00:49:56,710
still somewhat agnostic but very much

1191
00:50:00,269 --> 00:49:58,900
more open than I would be if I were a

1192
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:00,279
materialist so I think that's an

1193
00:50:02,999 --> 00:50:02,529
important it's not the reason I am pants

1194
00:50:05,770 --> 00:50:03,009
I guess

1195
00:50:07,300 --> 00:50:05,780
it's a

1196
00:50:11,020 --> 00:50:07,310
interesting and important implications

1197
00:50:12,670 --> 00:50:11,030
of you you know that's interesting you

1198
00:50:15,850 --> 00:50:12,680
know it's interesting how people come at

1199
00:50:18,190 --> 00:50:15,860
this stuff I have not had the firework

1200
00:50:20,770 --> 00:50:18,200
kind of spiritually transformative

1201
00:50:23,530 --> 00:50:20,780
experience either I'm you know

1202
00:50:24,670 --> 00:50:23,540
meditation kind of guy like you and I'm

1203
00:50:26,590 --> 00:50:24,680
open to it

1204
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:26,600
I'm waiting like you said I don't know

1205
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:28,160
if I'm waiting I've because we're we

1206
00:50:31,390 --> 00:50:30,050
can't really wait right that's part of

1207
00:50:33,180 --> 00:50:31,400
the thing about meditating right we're

1208
00:50:35,710 --> 00:50:33,190
not waiting we're just being present but

1209
00:50:37,420 --> 00:50:35,720
analyse yourself a little bit you know

1210
00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:37,430
because I think there's a lot of folks

1211
00:50:44,070 --> 00:50:40,310
like like you Philip and like me as well

1212
00:50:47,410 --> 00:50:44,080
especially guys we need to think it and

1213
00:50:49,810 --> 00:50:47,420
understand it really before we can feel

1214
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:49,820
it in some ways and before we can

1215
00:50:53,140 --> 00:50:51,530
experience it and it sounds like that's

1216
00:50:56,500 --> 00:50:53,150
where you're coming from you know you

1217
00:50:59,560 --> 00:50:56,510
need to kind of grok pant psychism

1218
00:51:01,300 --> 00:50:59,570
versus materialism before you're willing

1219
00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:01,310
to venture in do you have any any

1220
00:51:07,060 --> 00:51:02,990
thoughts does that ring true to you at

1221
00:51:11,530 --> 00:51:07,070
all or yeah yeah I guess some I guess

1222
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:11,540
I'm always always thinking how things

1223
00:51:16,030 --> 00:51:13,610
fit together oh I want to I want a

1224
00:51:18,370 --> 00:51:16,040
complete world view where everything

1225
00:51:19,570 --> 00:51:18,380
fits nicely even sometimes women you

1226
00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:19,580
know I've got a young child and I

1227
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:22,310
watched lots of you know kids films and

1228
00:51:25,270 --> 00:51:24,110
they often don't make sense okay you

1229
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:25,280
know that doesn't make sense that you

1230
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:27,200
have to tell myself to stop these stupid

1231
00:51:31,690 --> 00:51:29,510
and stuff I suppose I'm you know I'm a

1232
00:51:33,850 --> 00:51:31,700
kind of logical guy I want to know how

1233
00:51:38,980 --> 00:51:33,860
it all fits into a logical coherent

1234
00:51:41,980 --> 00:51:38,990
worldview so yeah I guess I don't know

1235
00:51:43,690 --> 00:51:41,990
so I guess yeah a lot of people may

1236
00:51:45,340 --> 00:51:43,700
think of like sam harris or something

1237
00:51:49,510 --> 00:51:45,350
who's really into meditation and

1238
00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:49,520
spiritual experiences and but you know

1239
00:51:55,590 --> 00:51:51,140
he wants to think about that in a way

1240
00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:55,600
that fits with his general worldview and

1241
00:52:00,370 --> 00:51:58,490
yeah i suppose i said that's fine

1242
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:00,380
depending on on your worldview generally

1243
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:02,930
it's maybe gonna affect how are you on

1244
00:52:07,150 --> 00:52:05,090
the standard and what you're open to and

1245
00:52:09,150 --> 00:52:07,160
you know it could be fakes at some point

1246
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:09,160
and you just have such an overwhelming

1247
00:52:14,890 --> 00:52:11,570
spiritual experience that that changes

1248
00:52:16,930 --> 00:52:14,900
your worldview but I guess because I'm

1249
00:52:18,670 --> 00:52:16,940
already at pants I kissed it you know it

1250
00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:18,680
wouldn't be much of a change to my

1251
00:52:22,299 --> 00:52:19,910
worldview if

1252
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:22,309
Italy came into direct contact with

1253
00:52:27,370 --> 00:52:24,170
universal consciousness than sorry

1254
00:52:28,599 --> 00:52:27,380
underlied it underlies all things you

1255
00:52:30,999 --> 00:52:28,609
know that wouldn't be much of a change

1256
00:52:33,819 --> 00:52:31,009
to my worldview but you know we've just

1257
00:52:37,329 --> 00:52:33,829
I already think you know consciousness

1258
00:52:40,839 --> 00:52:37,339
is kind of everywhere yeah hey Philip

1259
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:40,849
when is the Galileo's aerbook when is

1260
00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:42,650
that coming out Galileo's err a

1261
00:52:45,940 --> 00:52:44,480
manifesto for a new science of

1262
00:52:48,339 --> 00:52:45,950
consciousness is that definitely going

1263
00:52:50,650 --> 00:52:48,349
to be the title is that the subtitle has

1264
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:50,660
changed two foundations for a new

1265
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:52,490
science consciousness but yeah the type

1266
00:53:00,069 --> 00:52:54,529
of thing yeah it's coming out August the

1267
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:00,079
15th in the US and the UK yeah I'm just

1268
00:53:04,509 --> 00:53:02,960
doing the proofs right now so I mean if

1269
00:53:06,309 --> 00:53:04,519
I could just say bleep it so the other

1270
00:53:08,710 --> 00:53:06,319
thing that focuses on so the Galileo

1271
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:08,720
stuff is why we have a problem of

1272
00:53:14,609 --> 00:53:10,730
consciousness and why we need to rethink

1273
00:53:18,789 --> 00:53:14,619
science but there's also positive story

1274
00:53:21,819 --> 00:53:18,799
which is the rediscovery of certain

1275
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:21,829
views defender by person Russell the

1276
00:53:26,859 --> 00:53:24,319
philosopher and Arthur Eddington in the

1277
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:26,869
1920s the scientist incidentally the

1278
00:53:30,789 --> 00:53:28,490
first scientist to confirm general

1279
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:30,799
relativity so that there's been a recent

1280
00:53:35,769 --> 00:53:33,049
rediscovery of their ideas from the

1281
00:53:38,140 --> 00:53:35,779
1920s which is causing a lot of

1282
00:53:41,740 --> 00:53:38,150
excitement in academic philosophy and as

1283
00:53:43,900 --> 00:53:41,750
I kind of hold new or rapid approach to

1284
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:43,910
consciousness that's part of what I'm

1285
00:53:48,730 --> 00:53:46,160
trying to promote in the book gives us

1286
00:53:50,140 --> 00:53:48,740
is another problem with materialism so

1287
00:53:52,450 --> 00:53:50,150
you've talked about what you see is

1288
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:52,460
empirical problems with materialism I've

1289
00:53:57,460 --> 00:53:54,410
talked about the problems as with

1290
00:54:00,240 --> 00:53:57,470
consciousness but you know what Russell

1291
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:00,250
and Eddington realized in the 1920s is

1292
00:54:06,069 --> 00:54:03,410
that actually physical science isn't

1293
00:54:09,220 --> 00:54:06,079
really telling us what stuff is anyway

1294
00:54:11,410 --> 00:54:09,230
so you know in the public mind physical

1295
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:11,420
science is giving us this complete story

1296
00:54:16,900 --> 00:54:13,730
of the nature of space and time and

1297
00:54:19,809 --> 00:54:16,910
matter but what Russell and Eddington

1298
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:19,819
realized in the 1920s is that when you

1299
00:54:24,430 --> 00:54:22,609
reflect on what the information you're

1300
00:54:26,140 --> 00:54:24,440
getting from physical science it's

1301
00:54:28,269 --> 00:54:26,150
really just telling us about the

1302
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:28,279
behavior of stuff you know what stuff

1303
00:54:32,170 --> 00:54:30,710
does and that's you know that's why it's

1304
00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:32,180
so useful for like engineering

1305
00:54:36,510 --> 00:54:33,910
technology because if you

1306
00:54:38,010 --> 00:54:36,520
how stuff behaves and you can predict

1307
00:54:39,750 --> 00:54:38,020
how it's gonna behave you can get an

1308
00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:39,760
incredible technology but it doesn't

1309
00:54:44,100 --> 00:54:41,710
really tell us what philosophers like to

1310
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:44,110
call the intrinsic nature of matter you

1311
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:46,650
know what it is in and of itself

1312
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:49,510
independently of how it behaves so this

1313
00:54:52,830 --> 00:54:50,890
is you know this is another problem

1314
00:54:54,810 --> 00:54:52,840
materialism even before you get to

1315
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:54,820
consciousness it's not really telling us

1316
00:55:01,170 --> 00:54:57,130
what matter is it's just telling us what

1317
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:01,180
it does and so that so the what what's

1318
00:55:06,750 --> 00:55:02,290
the hell is got this got to do with

1319
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:06,760
consciousness you know you can see the

1320
00:55:10,980 --> 00:55:08,650
problem of consciousness is the problem

1321
00:55:12,330 --> 00:55:10,990
of finding a place for consciousness in

1322
00:55:15,570 --> 00:55:12,340
our worldview you know how does

1323
00:55:18,270 --> 00:55:15,580
consciousness fit in and Russell and

1324
00:55:21,060 --> 00:55:18,280
Eddington say well actually there's this

1325
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:21,070
huge hole in our scientific picture that

1326
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:23,290
physics doesn't tell us what matter is

1327
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:27,490
and so there's a potential for a way of

1328
00:55:32,610 --> 00:55:30,130
solving both these problems at once what

1329
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:32,620
we say is that consciousness is the

1330
00:55:38,460 --> 00:55:35,770
intrinsic nature of matter so you know

1331
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:38,470
there's just matter physics describes it

1332
00:55:43,020 --> 00:55:40,090
from the outside it tells us what it

1333
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:43,030
does but in its in its intrinsic nature

1334
00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:45,490
its constituted a consciousness so this

1335
00:55:53,010 --> 00:55:50,440
is the positive positive aspect of the

1336
00:55:55,230 --> 00:55:53,020
book that's rediscovering this really

1337
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:55,240
you know what I think is what is one of

1338
00:55:59,640 --> 00:55:57,130
the most promising solutions for moving

1339
00:56:02,820 --> 00:55:59,650
forward consciousness so yeah that's the

1340
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:02,830
other aspect so that would be no no

1341
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:04,690
that's awesome that's perfect that's

1342
00:56:10,380 --> 00:56:08,170
great and so what is going what will we

1343
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:10,390
find over at the blog what's coming up

1344
00:56:17,220 --> 00:56:15,490
what are you working on what am i

1345
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:17,230
working on I don't know I think about

1346
00:56:20,910 --> 00:56:18,970
the blog from month to month really and

1347
00:56:22,170 --> 00:56:20,920
what's annoying me or what's I don't

1348
00:56:24,630 --> 00:56:22,180
know I probably should write something

1349
00:56:26,820 --> 00:56:24,640
that breaks it which is or dominates the

1350
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:26,830
whole news here yeah I was reading I was

1351
00:56:31,380 --> 00:56:28,890
reading a little bit about brexit I just

1352
00:56:34,620 --> 00:56:31,390
didn't even want to go there why would

1353
00:56:36,660 --> 00:56:34,630
you concede back to those idiots who are

1354
00:56:39,450 --> 00:56:36,670
trying to I mean the people voted let's

1355
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:39,460
let the people's vote matter for once I

1356
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:41,770
don't know one of the things that struck

1357
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:43,090
me coming back to Jerry Coyne

1358
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:45,310
you know I was proposing the benefits of

1359
00:56:49,540 --> 00:56:46,880
religion and he say

1360
00:56:50,950 --> 00:56:49,550
people are fine communities are fine as

1361
00:56:53,470 --> 00:56:50,960
they are but you know I think we're

1362
00:56:56,140 --> 00:56:53,480
living in a pretty messed-up world in

1363
00:56:58,900 --> 00:56:56,150
all sorts of ways you know that this the

1364
00:57:01,150 --> 00:56:58,910
far right all over Europe this you know

1365
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:01,160
brexit crisis here you know I think I

1366
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:05,090
think this is partly because people are

1367
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:06,650
lacking these shared structures is

1368
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:09,530
meaning lacking a worldview that makes

1369
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:11,570
sense of their lives and the self

1370
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:14,090
understanding so and this is yeah

1371
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:15,290
because as part of what I try to do in

1372
00:57:19,870 --> 00:57:16,610
the final chapter of the book actually

1373
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:19,880
go think about what implications can

1374
00:57:23,230 --> 00:57:21,770
psychism has to how we think about the

1375
00:57:25,870 --> 00:57:23,240
world how we think about the environment

1376
00:57:29,380 --> 00:57:25,880
and how we live our lives you know

1377
00:57:33,670 --> 00:57:29,390
spiritually and practically so yeah this

1378
00:57:35,740 --> 00:57:33,680
is you know so many philosophers are you

1379
00:57:37,390 --> 00:57:35,750
know so kind of cold blooded abstract

1380
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:37,400
focused on a specific issue or not

1381
00:57:45,910 --> 00:57:39,770
forgotten how to look at the big picture

1382
00:57:48,100 --> 00:57:45,920
which is kind of crucial but yeah well

1383
00:57:49,750 --> 00:57:48,110
excellent it's been absolutely terrific

1384
00:57:52,570 --> 00:57:49,760
chatting and I appreciate you going

1385
00:57:54,190 --> 00:57:52,580
through such as allowing me to just kind

1386
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:54,200
of free flow it here and talk about so

1387
00:57:58,210 --> 00:57:56,090
many different things so I do hope

1388
00:58:01,450 --> 00:57:58,220
people check out the new book it sounds

1389
00:58:03,430 --> 00:58:01,460
fantastic and the the first book is much

1390
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:03,440
more academically earning it but this is

1391
00:58:07,690 --> 00:58:05,510
cool will be the first one out on

1392
00:58:10,300 --> 00:58:07,700
talking about the new book and your

1393
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:10,310
website as well and I hope people follow

1394
00:58:17,980 --> 00:58:16,370
your work so thanks again Phillip thanks

1395
00:58:19,870 --> 00:58:17,990
again to Phillip Gough for joining me

1396
00:58:21,970 --> 00:58:19,880
today on skeptic oh I guess the one

1397
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:21,980
question I'd have to tee up from this

1398
00:58:28,540 --> 00:58:25,310
interview is the question of acceptance

1399
00:58:31,870 --> 00:58:28,550
we all get that biological robot in a

1400
00:58:34,330 --> 00:58:31,880
meaningless universe is an absurd idea

1401
00:58:36,610 --> 00:58:34,340
but how much do we need to pound that

1402
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:36,620
over the head of stuck in the mud

1403
00:58:43,270 --> 00:58:39,920
academics and other ordained holders of

1404
00:58:44,980 --> 00:58:43,280
power and influence boy I'm tempted to

1405
00:58:47,050 --> 00:58:44,990
answer that question but I'm not going

1406
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:47,060
to because I want you to answer it and

1407
00:58:51,070 --> 00:58:49,040
tell me what you think the best place to

1408
00:58:53,110 --> 00:58:51,080
do it is on the skeptical forum but you

1409
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:53,120
can reach out and connect with me any

1410
00:58:58,090 --> 00:58:55,730
way you like email Facebook which I

1411
00:59:00,840 --> 00:58:58,100
never get over to but anyway the

1412
00:59:03,550 --> 00:59:00,850
important thing is that we find a way to

1413
00:59:07,870 --> 00:59:03,560
again I always say this but it's so true

1414
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:07,880
this amazing thing that's going on of me

1415
00:59:14,650 --> 00:59:10,850
sitting in this room talking into the

1416
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:14,660
mic and you popping those earbuds on and

1417
00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:16,850
walking around and hearing this

1418
00:59:23,590 --> 00:59:20,300
conversation is such a cool amazing

1419
00:59:24,130 --> 00:59:23,600
thing so let's close the loop a little

1420
00:59:26,620 --> 00:59:24,140
bit

1421
00:59:29,140 --> 00:59:26,630
let's send an email back and forth let's

1422
00:59:31,210 --> 00:59:29,150
jump on a forum and talk about what's

1423
00:59:34,330 --> 00:59:31,220
happening when we do make this

1424
00:59:37,300 --> 00:59:34,340
connection I hope you do that I'm ready

1425
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:37,310
for it I'm waiting I hope you take the

1426
00:59:42,790 --> 00:59:39,890
next step of course do stay with me for

1427
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:42,800
upcoming skeptical episodes and be sure

1428
00:59:47,470 --> 00:59:44,570
to check out the back catalog all

1429
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:47,480
available for free download at skeptic

1430
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:52,010
accom until next time take care and bye

1431
01:00:00,240 --> 00:59:53,760
for now

1432
01:00:11,429 --> 01:00:07,240
[Music]

1433
01:00:13,289 --> 01:00:11,439
so thanks for watching this video if it

1434
01:00:15,900 --> 01:00:13,299
wasn't really a video but just an audio

1435
01:00:17,459 --> 01:00:15,910
stored as a video I apologize but

1436
01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:17,469
there's more videos out there as well

1437
01:00:21,239 --> 01:00:19,390
but please check out the skeptic Oh

1438
01:00:22,589 --> 01:00:21,249
website you can see it here we cover a

1439
01:00:25,410 --> 01:00:22,599
lot of different stuff you might be

1440
01:00:28,739 --> 01:00:25,420
interested in relating to controversial

1441
01:00:31,529 --> 01:00:28,749
science and spirituality a lot of shows

1442
01:00:34,289 --> 01:00:31,539
up there over 350 of them are so all

1443
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:34,299
free all available for download so do